"I have also been called a fascist for simply expressing an opinion (just google my name and “fascism”)."No you haven't been Flora and anybody who reads the post (this one) you direct them to will see that. You referred to certain proposals by Paul Hawken for overt command-and-control State direction of the economy, and it was these proposals that I referred to as ecofascism - because that's what they are, whether it hurts your feelings or not.
"If anybody compares ... an opinionated environmentalist to a fascist... it demonstrates the complete lack of moral compass and a basic lack of commonsense."No it doesn't. It demonstrates adherence to conceptual integrity; a fascist is not the same thing as a mass-murderer Flora. A fascist is someone who believes that all aspects of social life ought to be tightly bound to the strict control of the State. The modern, democratic version of this ideology is subtly different: it is not that State power must be totalitarian, but that there must be no principled limit to its reach. Hence the theft of the Miaoli farmers' land in 2010, and the theft of the Wangs' home in Taipei recently.
"Why the Taipei Times would give a platform to people who cannot distinguish between democratic discourse and mindless insults, I do not know..."Neither do I, Flora, for not only can I not get published in the Taipei Times anymore (presumably because the editors there only appreciate criticism when it is not directed at them), but you were the one who publicly insulted NTU professor Lu Hsin-chang (盧信昌) as "naive" simply because you were, and remain, mindless of free-market critiques of negative externalities and commons scenarios.
"The goal of hate speech is to dehumanize the subject of the attack so as to either ostracize or eradicate them..."Well you and your ilk have succeeded then haven't you Flora? After all, I am now banned at the Taipei Times and banned at nearly all of the most popular English language political blogs in Taiwan - and for what? For making the arguments for a free society and for rational skepticism.
"Vilification of the perceived enemy always comes before steps are taken to remove them."Flora, I couldn't remove you if I tried - and I have tried! You just keep coming back to my blog to throw swear words at me and accuse me of spreading "right-wing lies" - just as they are presumably alluded to in the comic books on your required reading list at NTU. If anything, it's more likely that "steps" will eventually be taken to remove me. You even seem to anticipate this eventuality yourself...
"In a civilized, democratic country, such hate speech should never be tolerated."On the contrary Flora, hate is the inverse of love, is a natural human emotion and it should not be regarded in isolation from the objects and context to which it attaches. Consider: perhaps the Wang family hate what is being done to them now - should they be forbidden from expressing such hatred? Of course not. "Hate speech" is merely another tool for the expansion of political power - the right to free speech should always be tolerated up to the point at which it infringes upon other people's rights, such as the right to life or the right to private property. This is why the right to freedom of speech does not license falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre - because it terminates at the point where other peoples' right to life would demonstrably be put in jeopardy. This is also why it is not a violation of freedom of speech when the Taipei Times bans me - that newspaper does not belong to me and therefore I have no right to expect them to publish anything I might send them.
But that doesn't mean I can't lament this if I want to.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
ReplyDeleteFinally, you have been shown to the world as the GIGANTIC FUCKING ASSHOLE that you are!
Well done TT and FF!!!
No it doesn't. It demonstrates adherence to conceptual integrity; a fascist is not the same thing as a mass-murderer Flora.
ReplyDeleteThis is so ridiculous as to need no further discussions. You cannot redefine the meaning of words who have been defined by history.
Fascists are mass-murderers, and the use of these words makes you a despicable hate speaker. Do not shy away from reality!
You might as well redefine the meaning of the word nigger for your purposes (maybe to defend your darling Santorum, your fascist right-wing buddy?).
Why do I call you a fascist right-winger? Because that is actually the proper use of the word. Your philosophy will inevitably lead to a takeover of the world by a handful of rich and powerful individuals and corporations who will crush any discent, as we already see in the United States, as correctly pointed out by Naomi Wolf, amongst others.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/05/us-sexual-humiliation-political-control
And your buddy Santorum would march right down that alley begun by George Bush (extraordinary rendition, torture, holding people indefinitely without trial). So yes, you are the fascist, and not FF.
I think to allow anonymous commentary is a mistake. it allows for public commentary that incurs no costs yet seeks to influence public discourse. They seek to maintain privacy for their maximum benefit at the expense of others.
ReplyDeletethe comments above are attempts to define by constraining what is considered acceptable general public opinion by way of defining fagan's commentary as his own private opinion not deserving access to platforms of public discourse (even though these anonymous comments are completely private due to their anonymity therefore meaningless as well).
for both sides, there are better definitions of what a fascist is, and both side do facilitate the tendency towards fascism in different ways.
democratic individuals as much as fascists have been mass murders. Simply be looking at American policy. Should we move towards more individualist societies? I don't think so it leads to opening themselves to domination from more representational political forms. is it better inside, or outside house?
i am in disagreement with a lot of fagan's ideas. However, I don't think I need to insult the guy. Fortunately "loving" "caring" environmentalist believe that's their job.
i find it interesting that the TT article talks of Ma and Hitler, yet it brings fagan into it because of fascism and the author flora faun.
What I take away from this is that TT is facilitating the insults incurred at Fagan on a public medium (TT and his blog), as they should have edited out Facism+FloraFaun, or at least looked closer at where and how those links would develop. Because it's obvious where the discussion is going.
Hitler started up as a fascist not a mass murder.
Ma exhibits fascist tendencies as well with his Confucius messages and "worshiping" of historical leaders his political party leans on.
@Flora
ReplyDelete"This is so ridiculous as to need no further discussions. You cannot redefine the meaning of words who have been defined by history."
"History" does not define words, Flora, history is a record of events. It is people that define words in common usage.
"Fascists are mass-murderers, and the use of these words makes you a despicable hate speaker. Do not shy away from reality!"
The fascists existed before they committed mass-murder. Therefore fascism is not the same thing as mass-murder. QED.
"You might as well redefine the meaning of the word nigger for your purposes (maybe to defend your darling Santorum, your fascist right-wing buddy?)."
Santorum is not my "buddy" and I won't defend his "almost-use" of that word because I was disgusted with it.
"Your philosophy will inevitably lead to a takeover of the world by a handful of rich and powerful individuals and corporations who will crush any discent..."
Not at all. As has been pointed out to you numerous times Flora, private property rights are for everbody not just the rich. And as I have also explained elsewhere before (you would know if you actually read my blog), a lot of these rich corporations and individuals would not be anything like as powerful as they are today without an overbearing democratic State to manipulate in the service of their interests (e.g. demolishing the Wangs' home to make way for their own project).
"...as correctly pointed out by Naomi Wolf..."
I have already stated for you (in comment #22 on the "Hermes" thread) my agreement with Naomi Wolf about the new strip powers. The State should not have this power.
"And your buddy Santorum would march right down that alley begun by George Bush (extraordinary rendition, torture, holding people indefinitely without trial)."
That would be the one which Obama has cynically continued, despite his high-profile campaign against that stuff.
@Phillipe
ReplyDelete"I think to allow anonymous commentary is a mistake. it allows for public commentary that incurs no costs yet seeks to influence public discourse."
That's true only on a narrow reading of "costs". Besides which, we now know that it is "Flora Faun" who is commenting and it's quite likely that a few people actually know her by her real identity (perhaps the eds at the TT for a start). In any case, the cost to her is the exposure of her own claims (e.g. that I called her a "fascist", which, if anyone reads that "Hermes" post will see, is not true).
"...for both sides, there are better definitions of what a fascist is, and both side do facilitate the tendency towards fascism in different ways."
What is deficient in my use of the terms "fascism" and "ecofascism"? Or when you refer to "both sides" are you also making the mistaken presumption that I am a conservative? I refer further questions on my use of the term "fascist" to this earlier post "On Fascism".
"Should we move towards more individualist societies? I don't think so it leads to opening themselves to domination from more representational political forms."
Here is an observation: you have never attempted to explain, evince and defend that assertion to me.
"What I take away from this is that TT is facilitating the insults incurred at Fagan on a public medium (TT and his blog)..."
Phillipe, it's not Flora's insults per se that bother me. The TT eds have a right to say whatever they want - but so do I and everyone else.
"Because it's obvious where the discussion is going."
It isn't obvious to me.
"Hitler started up as a fascist not a mass murder."
Ah, careful: Hitler was an ideological fascist but his big political "start" was delivered democratically.
"Ma exhibits fascist tendencies as well..."
Well, just as I refer to the greens as "ecofascist", the use of the term in a modern context has to feature some kind of qualification. Of course Flora is correct when she says that President Ma is not Hitler - I doubt even Ma's most fervent detractors can sincerely believe that - but Flora is making the mistake of assuming that "fascist" is just a synonym for mass-murderer. Here is what I said recently to J.M.Cole:
"In a perverse sense, the government is a victim - of incompatible premises: a market economy presupposes private property rights for everyone; yet the exercise of political power, whether excused by democratic form or not, presupposes majoritarian support against a minority. Under that inherent contradiction, "rights" are - at best - no more than contingent privileges; all that can be altered are the specific calculations as to who will have their "rights" revoked when, by whom and for the benefit of whom (Lenin's "who, whom?")."
sounds like an opportunity for a robust definition of fascism.
ReplyDelete